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Microsoft could lose key Nokia manufacturing plant in India

Nokia

Nokia, BMW, IBM, Vodafone, and Royal Dutch Shell are just a few of the multinational companies caught up in tax battles with the Indian government. A few days ago we learned that an Indian Supreme Court ruled that Nokia must deposit $571 million into an escrow account before it can transfer a key manufacturing plant to Microsoft.

As you know, Microsoft is trying to finalize its deal to acquire Nokia’s phone unit for $7.3 billion. Microsoft and Nokia hope to finish the deal before the month ends. However, the Indian government is making things a little tricky for the two companies.

The Chennai factory is a key manufacturing asset for Nokia and would become Microsoft’s property under the current deal. However, according to a senior Indian tax official, that Nokia factory may not got to Microsoft after all.

Nokia and Microsoft may need to renegotiate the $7.3 billion acquisition deal because of the Chennai factory. Sources in the Indian courts tell local newspapers that the plant can’t become part of the Microsoft deal because of the ruling from the Supreme Court. Nokia Finland, parent company to Nokia India, doesn’t want to get involved. A quote from an Indian tax official:

“Nokia Finland has made it clear to us that it does not want to get involved. They have also made it amply clear that they want to limit their liability to their assets in India. In such a situation, they have no option but to exclude the Chennai unit from the deal for it to go through within the set time frame." 

Nokia is left with a few options. It could run the factory as a contractor on behalf of Microsoft or it could shut the plant down. Which would leave over 8,000 locals out of work. A blow not only to Microsoft, which wouldn’t get a key manufacturing plant, but to those who rely on the factory for their livelihood.

Nokia has maintained that any developments in India over ongoing tax proceedings won’t affect the timing or the material deal between itself and Microsoft. One way or the other, Nokia and Microsoft are planning on closing the deal in the coming weeks.

Source: The Financial Express

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Comments

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rockstarzzz says:

That's ok. Whatever, Microsoft gets, it should take it and seal the damn deal now. It's dragging way too long.

It'd be funny if later it is uncovered that Samsung paid some key folks in India to ensure dominance in that sector. Even funnier if they "happen to buy" that same facility in the near future. But Samsung wouldn't do this right?........right? That would be playing way too dirty......then gain...

V Hoang1 says:

You guys really need to do the research before commenting.  The reason Nokia will walk is because the court ask them to expose the parent corp to unlimited liability, which is absurd as that factory and the subsidiary that holds it is worth probably 250-300m.

India changed the tax law retroactively in 2011 with the specific goal of entrapping Nokia into tax liabilities that never existed before. After the tax law change, they raided Nokia and said...oh look you cheated on your tax for the prior ten years (which Nokia did not as they were in full compliance with the existing laws during those 10 years)...so lets see with penalties which are 10x the tax amount....hmm that amounts to everything you have. They've used this same trick against Vodafone and other companies, it's just not Nokia...even after Vodafone won at the supreme court, they went back and changed the tax laws (retroactively going back 30 years) a second time to allow them to continue persecuting that business.

Nokia needs to shut that factory down now.  The total value of the subsidiary is only 1.7% of nokia's capitalization, Nokia has already lost billions in stock value because of the constant bad headlines from that tax dispute.

You cannot negotiate with thieves and thugs, time to walk away.

Okay, this actually gives me a new perspective on the entire fiasco.  Cause the 300 million is a hefty amount to miss over any time period.

PJ Suresh says:

And this is what I call **** logic... The workers in that plant are indian people... they have higher positions in management too... Do you think they didn't let the authority to know about the change in tax rules?... Keep dreaming on your own logics...

PJ Suresh says:

Idk whether my reply is a correct one... There is also a Samsung plant here in Chennai... Probably its a key plant too...

If Microsoft decides to pay that 500 million for Nokia, the 8000 Indians and their families should worship Microsoft. I think that is the best thing they can do. Just pay the stupid "debt". They will win the hearts of many Indians.
If they close it down the Indian government loses because they won't get any money and 8000 Indians will be out of a job but Microsoft loses too because they lost an important factory.

I think Microsoft should just play the good guy in this one. It will be good karma for them. The Indian government will get what they deserve soon enough.

juanitoriv says:

Its a difference of about $200mil based on the original ruling from a few months ago and this new one. Then again there were deals in re: taxes already established with Nokia and India. It seems to me like the Indian government is trying to buffer its coffers a bit, take advantage. This might just come down to a matter of principal. If India is, indeed, reneging on what was previously agreed upon, then I could not blame Nokia for excluding the plant in the deal. On a scale as large as we are seeing, the money isn't the issue. MS could easily make up the difference, but what kind of precedent does that set? Leaves the door open for all kinds of future actions. We all know how well it went down for the pirates in Captain Phillips, who were trying to extort money. Unfortunately, 8,000 workers in India might pay the price for this.

hopmedic says:

I would have already shuttered the plant, and told the Indian government, "Play fair, or you've put your own people out of work."

MERCDROID says:

+9000

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txDrum says:

Which is why you aren't CEO of a huge company.

MERCDROID says:

Are you?

 

How do you know some CEOs of big companies wouldn't take that course of action?

 

And, how do you know that Nokia won't end up doing that in the end? 

 

Answer: You don't know the answers to either question, lol. Which is why you aren't the CEO of a huge company.

KelvBlue says:

Actually, this tax fiasco should give you a second thought to continue business there. The government can do it now surely they can do it again in the future.

iyae says:

Disagree. Karma isn't a real thing, its silly, magical thinking. MS and Nokia should give the corrupt indian government the middle finger and shut it down. 8000 people out of a job because of more greed may help the citizens realise they need to do something about this.

MERCDROID says:

Disagree. Karma is real, at least to me, it is.

I see no point of realization for the 8000 workers. Your comment is invalid.

ThatsAwesome says:

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Novron says:

Screw India, take the half bil and build a new plant in a country who will appreciate having work.

Rehan Saleem says:

Nay....don't say screw India, repeat with me - Screw the government. After all...when did politics play nice?
P.S Karma ain't real...it's kind of superstitious...

Rug says:

Is Obama running India too? Sounds like something he would so.

India won't require a Obama to ruin it. Government (Congress) is enough (they always are).

PJ Suresh says:

100000% agreed

V Hoang1 says:

India changed the tax law retroactively in 2011 with the specific goal of entrapping Nokia into tax liabilities that never existed before. After the tax law change, they raided Nokia and said...oh look you cheated on your tax for the prior ten years (which Nokia did not as they were in full compliance with the existing laws during those 10 years)...so lets see with penalties which are 10x the tax amount....hmm that amounts to everything you have. They've used this same trick against Vodafone and other companies, it's just not Nokia...even after Vodafone won at the supreme court, they went back and changed the tax laws (retroactively going back 30 years) a second time to allow them to continue persecuting that business.

dhaval88 says:

Loosing popularity now in India......

OMG55 says:

What's losing popularity in India? Nokia? They are the ones not paying the taxes india's government is demanding

rjmlive says:

There is a lot more to the story, including a general tax agreement between Finland and India that plays a role. I wasn't aware of the other companies in similar situations.  This doesn't look good on the Indian Government right now from the sources I've seen on the issue.

rockstarzzz says:

Indian courts are only asking to set this amount aside on the esc. account and if Nokia wins the case against the law, money goes back. If not, taxes are claimed.

Wrong, the Courts in India are asking Nokia to set aside that amount, and to be liable without appeal on further amounts up to 3 billion dollars. Please research this before posting such statements.

tbonenga says:

I say close it too. I think India is doing this to squeeze money out of Nokia. Threaten them with loosing 8,000 jobs. They'll change their tune in a hurry.

Jas00555 says:

Are 8,000 jobs out of 1 billion people really that big of a deal that they'll completely change their minds? Sure, whenever anyone, whether it's 1 or 1,000, loses their job its bad, but are jobs that scarce in India that those people would be worth $571 million?

tbonenga says:

ABSOLUTELY!!!! jobs are extremely scarce. Probably 80 million applied for them 8,000 jobs.

ThatsAwesome says:

exactly. $571 million is way too much for thos crappy 8000 jobs.

melwin31 says:

India is not doin it intentionally they are demanding wat they want, m a fan of nokia hope everything goes fine. End of the day all should be beneficial ..

MERCDROID says:

Ummm... If India is "demanding wat they want," then they are "doin it intentionally." 

 

Just sayin'.

vish2801 says:

Let the law take the course of action. You me and almost all shouting here don't know the real issue.

shadoweye14 says:

Not when sometimes the legal way isn't necessarily 'Functioning' properly.

SIDD_DEY says:

Nokia Finland acted moron past year...and now aloof this year...
I wish good luck to those 8000 employees!

MERCDROID says:

Right, because India's government is innocent in all of this.

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rockstarzzz says:

It is simple! The Govt wants to make sure Nokia doesn't wash hands off the case if it loses against the Govt. So they've demanded Nokia move this money into esc account and IF they lose the case, Govt gets the money. However, if Nokia wins the case and they shouldn't rightfully be paying taxes, it will be return to Nokia (who then may or may not be a part of Microsoft to an extent).

The Govt. fears laws that will prevent them from getting this tax paid AFTER THE ACQUISITION if it is successful. They are playing their cards right. If Microsoft gets through, they *may* not have to pay any debts as the ownership has changed.

This comes from 3 friends who have studied Company Law and International Taxation in India - who work in the same building as me.

MERCDROID says:

Fair enough, brother. I'm sure, it won't be too long before we know the outcome of all of this.

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Tips_y says:

Yes, the Indian government is doing this to protect its own interest. So Nokia should be doing the same thing and protect its own interest by closing down the factory and cut its loses..

vish2801 says:

It's not that easy.

Sam Sabri says:

It's hard to say who is at fault here. Nokia or the Indian tax authorities. Nokia claims they don't need to pay taxes on software downloads for phones made in India because of a bilateral tax treaty between Finland and India. The Indian tax authorities say otherwise.

You still have two players, Nokia and the Indian government, that want to save/make money. Like others have said in the comments, the real losers here are the factory 8,000 workers from Chennai that may not have a job soon. 

I don't think any of us know enough about international tax laws to say whether or not Nokia is innocent or trying to make more money. We also can't say whether or not the Indian government is being honest vs. corrupt. It just is what it is. 

SIDD_DEY says:

Look mate...laws are made by governments....i aint supporting Nokia or Indian tax Law.
All i say is a prayer for those ppl who's livelihood is dependent on the device we play flappy bird on.
Its surely not a time to play blame game....deal shud be closed....the plant shud be contracted so those 8k workers can survive.

BBurke33609 says:

is this $571 million rupees? If so that is only $9,313,000 usd which would be kind of a pittance that isn't even worth all of this static. Any clarification?

Edit: Nope that is USD. WTF!!! This is really about taxes for software downloads? How could this possibly ever even come close to gross revenue for that let alone the tax burden.

Then it wouldn't be $571m. $ = Dollar

BBurke33609 says:

But it is next to impossible to see the tax liability to be that high on nokia's app store. Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

I don't think you are. This looks like, imo, another case of government greed. Every country has one or more at some time.or another.

TechBizJP says:

Why use $ sign and say Rupees?

And to correct you, its $571 million as in Dollars, not Rupees.

SIDD_DEY says:

Lol....its in USD, and trust me....its not puny...its huge!

jojoe42 says:

Seems a bit ridiculously considering you could probably build another two factories in a different country with that money....

walter1832 says:

It is in JPY Yen, so about $5.5MM USD

Jack Larson1 says:

How about bitcoin?

It is actually far more. The government wants them to set aside that much, then to give up their rights of appeal up to an amount of more than 3 billion dollars, which is utterly insane. There is not 1 company on this earth that would agree to this extortion.

Fritzly says:

What it seems missed here is the fac that this money is supposed to go in an ESCROW account, not paid to any India agency. When the trial will end if Nokia wins get the money back, if guilty the Indian authorities will get it. It is like paying a bond to get out of jail waiting for the trial.

ymcpa says:

But as you say in the article, Nokia isn't the only company India is going after. You have BMW, IBM, etc also being sued. I doubt all these companies are tax dodgers. It sounds like the local taxing authorities are stretching the tax laws to get some extra income that they can then put in their own pockets.

ThatsAwesome says:

Look, Nokia has nothing to lose here and its Indian Govt which has everything to lose.

Nokia can just sell the plant just shut it down and they can build up a new plant elsewhere like Phillipines or China for quater the amount.

The Only reason this plant existed was for manufacturing feature phones, which are irrelevent to Microsoft anyway, considering MS is only interested in Lumia line of Nokia, Optics division and marketing.

sahib lopez says:

ill feel bad for those workers who make a living from that plant :/

MERCDROID says:

This. They're the bystanders, in all of this.

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OMG55 says:

My quote is from the WPC app for windows phone?

OMG55 says:

Now I'm commenting via the WPC app for ios

MERCDROID says:

Lol. Trust me, I hate that signature and just changed it 30 minutes ago, lol.

Posted via my "Gift from God" Note 3, my "Blessed" iPad Mini 2, or my "Risen" Asus ROG"

sahib lopez says:

it does suck losing a job sure we want this to go though already but it doesnt seem nice that people are lossing thier jobs over it

Sahib I am still felling bad for the missing plane :p

BugiardoLR says:

Shut it down and blame the Supreme Court of India :)

dhaval88 says:

Now those golden days of nokia in India has gone.....,

BugiardoLR says:

it's a great loss but it's still up to Nokia india to decide what to do with the factory , they can still save it 

OMG55 says:

Lets, see what Nokia decides to do

r4v says:

Not really. Actually I can bet that noone would care about those workers.

I just love Sam, he knows that this article will raise acid comments again. :D

NIST says:

Sam is a genius

You seem overly sensitive.

Sam Sabri says:

Ha. It's going to be a divisive topic. I just hope cooler heads prevail... 

DJCBS says:

Boy will you be disappointed by my comment...

Want me to go write another, more heated, one? ;P

Tips_y says:

I have a better idea... why don't you put your name down in that pre-order list for the X in China.

Is he supposed to ignore the story?
Your comment is worth less than "first!"

Madhu T C says:

It is also serious blow to Microsoft market as India in one of the growing markets for WP.

dhaval88 says:

Ye GROWING MARKET with shutting down,some app developers not ready to launch their app in windows phone ,initial stage people had shown great interest towards L520,but now peoples gets borred ,because of absence of mature file manager to handle files,,,,every day 24x7 carry laptop for getting work done from this phone ....it is kind of time consuming process ,,,,

Why do people get bored without a mature file manager?

"Ah, so nice to be off work, I can't wait to go home and open up windows explorer and just move files around for a few hours!"

Jabid21 says:

People need to be able to move their pr0n they've downloaded to a "hidden" folder.

MERCDROID says:

Why not just hide the folder? Lol

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dhaval88 says:

Not always related to downloaded prOn ,,,,but sometimes confidential documents is also a matter

cwc2311 says:

You win the Internets today for that one.

MERCDROID says:

+1 lol

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dhaval88 says:

Why people has to wait for go to home and connect to explorer,,,,ah what to do if one wants urgently move files on the way when he or she is travelling?,,,ah why still want to depends on others(pc/laptops) ah,,,

Steven Curl says:

Please trust me when I say, that the average consumer has no interest in a 'mature file manager'. Even with millions of downloads for these on Android, that's still a tiny fraction of the total Android install base.

Hell.. I'm more than an average consumer and I don't care about one.. If I need to move files.. I just plug it in to my computer...

dhaval88 says:

Hell.....because average people have enough free time for plug in to pc and all that,busy schedule people don't have that much time

You are the guys who need to download "Pocket File Manager". It is the only full functional file manager available out there for WP right now.

MERCDROID says:

That really sucks. The Indian government definitely doesn't have the people's best interest in mind.

Blatant extortion at its finest.

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traceamar says:

And you have some information that rest of us don't...

MERCDROID says:

I'm sorry, this comment isn't worth a serious reply.

Blind patriotism is foolish. Period.

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The government wants to impose taxes AFTER THE PHONES ARE MADE, SHIPPED AND SOLD. There is no legal argument for taxing app purchases in the way India is trying to.
The taxes aren't owed. This is extortion.
Let the 8000 starve before negotiating with 'terrorists' even when they're just lame, backwards governments.

MERCDROID says:

This. I'm no law professional, but I'm pretty sure it's not common practice to tax a good or service after its sold or performed.

I see this as a money grab. And, it sucks, because 8000 people are caught in the middle of this, with no immediate course of action.

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DJCBS says:

I am a law professional and no, it's not only not common practice, it's not an acceptable practice for countries that are part of the World Trade Organization. And India is.

You can tax software downloads sure, but that tax must be applied to the distributor before or, to the customer in the moment he accepts to enter the contract. You can't sell something and then come up with a tax to impose on that transaction after it has been closed.

OMG55 says:

It doesn't matter what you think, lawyer or not because the lawyers involved in this case direct has had a judge rule against Nokia demanding that they deposit 571m into an account before proceeding with the sale......and yes I know they can appeal, but how close will their legal bill be to the 571m at the end of the day?

MERCDROID says:

Even if their legal bills approach or pass the amount in question, this is a matter of principle, more so than a financial matter.

Any action taken now sets a precedent not only down the road for Nokia and Microsoft, but for other mobile companies conducting business in India as well.

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juanitoriv says:

I just said that above..

MERCDROID says:

Oops... My bad?

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juanitoriv says:

Nope, not your bad. That's just how comments work. 8)

And just goes to show that Great Minds think alike...

BBurke33609 says:

From what I've read about this the charges have to do with royalties for pretty much all the software on the phones that Nokia India to parent company not just app purchases. I'm also wondering about the period of time these taxes are being accrued from. If this is a decade or longer then it still seems kind of crazy but fathomable. There are probably fines also I imagine. This might be a bitter pill but the full extent of this is possibly Nokia being in the wrong. I don't see anyone pointing this out but it is completely possible.

MERCDROID says:

You're absolutely right. It is possible for Nokia to be in the wrong. We'll have to wait and see how things play out.

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iyae says:

Oh hush you.

The loss of the factory is on the rouge-ish Indian government claiming a right to tax the apps purchased on a phone built there. That is utter garbage! Screw India for this.
There is plenty of manufacturing capability elsewhere.

donbreathe says:

I have read this article over and over to my amazement. I think the Indian government tax officials are clowns, you want to throw 8000 workers (mostly) Indians out of job cos of some crazy afterthought legal battle on ridiculous taxes. Nokia should just shut down the plant, this is one of the many reasons why developing countries will never catch up. Bad governance, silly policies and selfish leadership!

walter1832 says:

They should shut it down, retool it as a clown factory.
 

Clesanbar says:

Generalizing much? Not every developing country has "bad governance, silly policies and selfish leadership"

LimeSoda says:

Unfortunately India has bad corrupt governance. Not sure about the exact merits of this case but companies need some certainty. It seems foreign companies are targeted with huge tax demands, and local companies (with influence) are not as vigorously pursued.

iyae says:

Funnily enough, yeah, they actually kinda all do!

tigermcm says:

Hmmmm if all those companies with microkia are having issues with india the common factor is india can no one fix this?

sammy3599 says:

India is the common factor only because of the current economic state of the world. Its just that MNC's are withdrawing capital from India in order to allow capital migration back to their home countries and in this process are leaving their Indian subsidiaries dry. The government is just trying to take what it deserves before these companies extract money to a point where they can not pay off their liabilities.

dannybisa says:

Build a factory in the U.S. Let's start with Made in the U.S.A. I'm sure it would boost business for Microsoft!

sammy3599 says:

Sure, that will totally work out well. The simple cost of hiring labour in the US will kick up production cost exponentially. India's minimum wage is WAY lower than the US's . Its either going to lead to slimmer profit margins or a factory that runs almost completely on machines. Either way its gono help nobody.

juanitoriv says:

Sammy, I can't help but agree with all but the last part. Why not make the parts in Mexico, and then assemble here in the US? Just like Harley Davidson's...

juanitoriv says:

Danny, I am all for that!! Bring back the time when Made in the USA really meant something!!

MERCDROID says:

+9000

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avigyan says:

Lol. Can you point out three things that are actually "made" in the USA. Isn't the US&A dependent on other countries for the making of their products? Yet they claim to be "first world". Ironic right?

juanitoriv says:

American Idol. Hate that show BTW. Bourbon Whiskey.. Love that!! Me. There's 3 things for ya. I was assembled from Mexican parts though too. 8P.

Football could be a stand in for any of those though. I mean FOOTBALL!! Not soccer.

And America isn't dependant on other countries for the producing of anything. America simply embraces capitalism and the free market in its entirety. How is it our fault that other countries' economy(s) are so poor that we can get goods dirt cheap? Are we bad for "exploiting" that? Simple marketing there, supply & demand. Supply inexpensive quality goods and the demand for them will follow. Here in the US, we can make the best of any and everything. Surface Phone, for sure. But a $30 Lumia has to be made in Asia. That IS First World.

DJCBS says:

Microsoft will probably accept to lose the factory and reorganize the manufacturing in the remaining ones, without changing the value of the deal. It's the easiest way out of it.
To reflect any changing of price in the deal would require a new deal and a new round of approvals from the authorities, which would delay the deal another few months.
While I would personally love that to happen, it just won't. And, in the end, it's just one factory. Seeing as these factories are less and less OEM owned and more subcontracted (a la Foxconn) it's more likely that Microsoft, if indeed needs the power of that factory, will just increase the contract with Foxconn or the likes of it.

 

In the end, the only ones really losing from all of this will be the Indian employees. In which case they can go blame their government for it.

Jas00555 says:

Hopefully if they do that, it won't affect the quality of the phones too much. I'm not too big of a fan of Foxconn. Then again, they could do what Blackberry is doing and make their own high-end phones and outsource the 5XX series and such to Foxconn.

DJCBS says:

It will depend on how Microsoft supervises the quality control of the products. Nokia gives a lot of relevance to the quality control. But Microsoft is a bigger company with way too many divisions requiring control. If they make that extra effort, they may keep the quality. But I think the quality of the phones will come down under Microsoft, to the levels of other OEMs. Because Nokia spends way too much money on it. And Microsoft will certainly be more cost-effective concerned.

 

In either case, I don't know what exactly did the Indian factory produced, but all the Nokia products I have (and they are quite a lot of them as you may imagine) are all produced in China, probably by Foxconn.

Jas00555 says:

Yeah, we'll have to see. I imagine that if the same people who worked on the Lumias are now just going to wear Microsoft shirts to work and the environment doesn't change, the quality could still be there. Most of the complaints that I hear about the Surface line are about the software, while I hear almost nothing but great reviews of the hardware, so I think to a certain extent, Microsoft knows what they're doing in hardware.

DJCBS says:

Indeed, we'll see. It will depend on how much will Microsoft be willing to spend on manufacturing.

I've had problems with Microsoft hardware before though, so Microsoft as an OEM is already burned on my side (and I'm tying from a Microsoft keyboard and using a Microsoft mouse. So it's not like I don't use their hardware). The last problem I had was with my original Surface that died within 6 months...out of nowhere. And unless it was a Windows update that killed it (and a Windows RT update has already killed the Surface keyboards in the past forcing me to install the entire Windows again...so I'm not rulling it completely out) it was the hardware.

Tips_y says:

You won't need to worry about Microsoft hardware anymore because you have already put your name down in the "pre-order" list for the X in China, right?

Hell off with Nokia and Microsoft. Pitty those 8000 people who are going to lose their jobs. I hope they find themselves a good job soon enough to earn their living.

I don't think you understand what's happening here..

Tips_y says:

Tell that to the Indian government.

Super_Bing says:

No wonder India is in the top ten list of corrupt countries in the world! This just goes to show how Hindu government mooches off multinational companies and gives its people absolutely nothing!

traceamar says:

Watch your tongue

MERCDROID says:

Or what? You gonna start making idle threats?

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avigyan says:

Wow you now even come down to religion?! Is the ruling judge in thus occasion your friend? How can you call it "Hindu government" or anything like that? Look, either you are undereducated or oblivious of religions and nations.

deecoop0351 says:

Shut it down. They don't need the jobs. Lets give the American people some work.

MERCDROID says:

I'd love for Nokia to build a factory here in the States.

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OMG55 says:

They are, Microkia!

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MERCDROID says:

Lol

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DJCBS says:

Will the American people accept to return to XIX century working conditions as they have in India? I doubt it. Neither will Europeans accept that. And that's the problem of globalization. Unless American and European governments agree to prohibit American and European companies to move production to the East, jobs will keep being lost to India, China and other Asian countries.

NINJA PLZ says:

Where I live in Florida everything under the sun is hiring, but the people here say "there no jobs“ I just think there lazy.

DJCBS says:

They're hiring for how much a month? Here in Europe unemployment is a serious issue. And everything under the sun is also hiring. The thing is, often they want to hire you without a contract and by paying you miserable salaries, more often than not below the national minimum wage price. Basically they want you to be reduced to the poor life many people are forced to live in countries like China and India. Except they want to do it in Europe and America. It's called exploitation and we've evolved past that.

NINJA PLZ says:

Part time or full and its minimum wage for part time its about €12. full time its about €18 were I live.

DJCBS says:

12€/18€ a day? Or per hour?

(also, you converted the value from dollars to euros or did you do a 1€=$1 conversion?)

NINJA PLZ says:

I did the conversion with Bing witch is 1€=1.38 USD and its 12€/18€ per hour. But then again I live close to the beach.

DJCBS says:

Ok. Well, at those salaries, if people don't want to work, then they ARE lazy. But that's not the rule. For example, here a nurse is being offered wages of 2€ and 3€ per hour. Obviously most of the nurses (and my sister is one) have already left the country because that's just exploitation.
(The closeness to the beach here isn't relevant as the country is almost entirely build on the shoreline and we don have tons of beaches, warm weather and sun during 2/3 of the year.)

Cleavitt76 says:

I live in Florida and have quite a few friends that are in need of a job or working a very low paying job that doesn't utilize their skills.  Your numbers are so far off it's absurd.  You're saying that there are lots of jobs out there in the $17 - $26 per hour range (~35K to 55K per year) and people just aren't taking them because they are lazy?  I'm sorry, but that is total BS.  You may see listings for jobs in those pay ranges, but what you are probably not getting is that each of these jobs has dozens of people competing for them or they require unique skillsets that used to pay much more.  The situation is actually much better than it was a few years ago, but we aren't back to where we were pre-2008.  The vast majority of people, including those that have kept their jobs throughout the recession, have seen a massive decrease in their net worth (mostly property value for the middle class), retirement savings, etc.  Many hard working and once productive members of society have lost their homes and nearly everything they ever worked for.  Categorizing all of them as "lazy" is not only unfair it is ignorant and stupid.

 

Also, anyone that lives in Florida knows that the tourist beach towns have a very high cost of living and many people that attempt to make a living in them end up bankrupt within a few years.  The higher than average pay in those locations does not keep up with the even higher cost of living.  In general, they are nice places to visit, but not great for renting an apartment, buying groceries, etc.

NINJA PLZ says:

Well I live in Boca Raton and I was saying amount people get payed close to me and that's how much they get paid. I make $17 a hour working at a software company part time.

majortom1981 says:

Keep in mind that a lot of people in the US do not have the required skills for the jobs out there. A lof of jobs are for highly skilled people. things like IT  and engineers. Most people work jobs like factories and other things. Jobs that you can get with very little college required.

 

Thats why they say there are no jobs.

NINJA PLZ says:

True but I got information technology done as a freshman in high school and I want to be a pilot for commercial airlines. (I'm currently a sophomore.)

Cleavitt76 says:

Ahh, now it makes sense.  You are still in college.  Your parents are probably paying for your education and much of your expenses.  At the very least they were up until very recently.  You also have very little to lose (house, savings, career, etc.) because you probably haven't had time to aquire any of these things yet.

 

I'll admit there are plenty of lazy people out there, but do yourself a favor and don't assume that everyone that isn't successful (by your standards) is lazy.  There are a ton of hard working educated people out there that are stuggling to stay afloat financially.  Instead of labeling everyone as lazy, try to understand that many other people have not had all the opportunities that you have had (college for example).  Also, know that life is not fair.  That means that hard working people often get screwed while lazy idiots may very well end up as your boss.

 

"I got information technology done as a freshman in high school"

 

I assume by that you mean a degree of some kind.  I work in IT and I can tell you that a degree is not the same as a job or a career.  You also need experience before that degree will pay off and contrary to popular belief many IT jobs don't pay all that well anyway.  Having said that, IT is a fairly good field to be in right now if you have the right skillset and specialties.  Not everyone has the right strengths to be successful in IT though.  Other industries have all but collapsed and people that spent years becoming experts in their field can't find work.

 

Anyway, my point is that things are not as simple as you make them out to be.  Keep working hard and good luck.

Selfie13 says:

I think you're right, people are just flat out lazy, on top of that, when we keep extending the unemployment benefits, it creates an incentive to not work, I know this firsthand as I became unemployed in 2008 in which I received maximum benefits for almost 2 years and had no incentive whatsoever to find work. Im ashamed I did that, but also willing to admit this happens and is fact.

pan_ani says:

Let the India bashing, derogatory comments begin...come on my dear friends!!

Ecurb87 says:

If Nokia closes the plant won't they still owe money? Is it a spiteful move or an actual financial benefit?

DJCBS says:

It's trickier than that. If the Indian government is indeed breaking an international treaty signed with Finland (which I believe they are), then Nokia doesn't own squat. In which case, if the Indian government insists in it, Nokia can simply close the factory and move out of India, letting the Indian government take control of the factory is they so wish, as a way of paying the supposed debt.

If Nokia has indeed to pay those taxes (which I very very very much doubt), then they do have to pay even if they close the factory. However, there's no real International Commercial Court to were India could take the case and force Nokia to pay. So, again, the best the Indian government could do was seize Nokia's properties in India to repay the debt. And they could ban Nokia products from entering India too...but that would lead to an European response because Finland is part of the EU. And they would move so that Europe would put restrictions or a ban on Indian products. In both cases of banning, neither India nor Europe would benefit much from it (though India would lose a hell of a lot more).
 

sammy3599 says:

I really don't believe that nokia is completely innocent in this case either. Had it been a target, Finland would have surely defended its "star company" with a little more ambition than it did in real life. They didn't even bring in the EU into this. Considering that it's a supposed violation of an international treaty you would expect more of a reaction from a country. Seem a little too fishy?

There are other companies in the same situation. I doubt they're all wrong too.

DJCBS says:

Well there are some aspects to consider though:

1 - they're not alone in having this problem. Other companies from other countries are having the same problems. Even Vodafone, which is a British Company. And Britain has a special relationship with India since they're part of the Commonwealth. If a British company is complaining about the Indian government, then it's very very very likely not Nokia's fault;

2 - they have a bilateral agreement with India which is what is being violated. The EU does not interfere in bilateral agreements because European countries, unlike the US, are sovereign states. As long as those bilateral agreements don't violate European Laws to which Finland is obliged, the EU doesn't interfere;

3 - the later Finnish governments have detached themselves of Nokia and don't see it as their "star company" anymore. If this had been 5 or 10 years ago, the Finnish government wouldn't even allow the deal with Microsoft to happen. The Finnish government even interfered in the governance of Nokia in their glory days. Nowadays, that's all gone. Unfortunately.;

4 - If India moves on a ban to Nokia or Finnish products, only then would Finland mix the EU into this.

sadiq.na says:

@DJCBS read this article

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/columns/s-murlidharan/tax-dept-has-strong-case-against-nokia/article5207154.ece.  So really we cant say who is faulty at the end and you cant blame indian government for this.Often all are under media radar, so  tax authorities are not making any relief so that they will be blamed in future for corruption

juanitoriv says:

I can sorta get behind this article if the facts are presented as are. Based on what I read, if NokIndia & NokFin were not "separate" entities (on paper), this conversation would never have happened. That article shines light that India is just trying to get their due, which I see nothing wrong with. The real issue, in my mind, is that there was an original agreement of ±$370mil to be deposited in escrow, which was AGREED upon. Now we're looking at a 50% increase on this "tariff", just because. This increase is what has brought all of this to light. Therein lies the issue.

SIDD_DEY says:

Hahah righteous Himanshu

walter1832 says:

God bless you!  Need a tissue?

elderjlward says:

Hopefully the tax will be paid allowing for the transfer of the factory. Sure Microsoft will move on without the factory should it ultimately be lost, but the advantage of the location, and the loss production volume along with the myriad inherent benefits of human resource will be lost. Additionally, being one who has experienced unemployment due to budget cuts, it is VERY difficult maintaining a household, a family, with the loss of a job. I don't know what the job market is like in India, I imagine it is challenging, but here in the US, I found it challenging finding employment in a tough job market even possessing good credentials. Some places that could hire, find you overqualified and fear you will leave when something more congruous with your experience presents itself. Others may not find you qualified enough, and seeking employment in a field where you have little experience because its available, whereas your area of expertise may not be presents its own challenges. God bless those 8000 individuals, thier families, thier children. Should the plant be closed down, they will need the prayers of those willing to petition God for thier well-being. "We" may lose a strategic factor in the smartphone wars, those families, they will be losing far more. God Bless Them

crise says:

How about buying the rest, and just keep hiring that factory through Nokia? Problem solved. A little less convinient, but meanhwile they could build a new factory.

TechBell says:

This whole Nokia merger deal was a bad decision for Microsoft that absolutely does not need its own manufacturing plants - much less the headaches of acquiring such a large division. There's nothing Microsoft could develop - hardwarewise - that couldn't be outsourced to a third-party manufacturer and built to exacting specs. And the one thing of value Microsoft didn't get in the deal - is the Nokia brand. Look at Google that couldn't wait to get its hands of Motorola and then realized what a mistake it was. Sure, they got some patents but ultimately the paid billions for something they did not need. #RedmondHubris

DJCBS says:

And the Board of Directors at Microsoft (and myself) agree with you. But Ballmer shouted his way into this mess.

steveyayo says:

Sorry, but this is pure ignorance. Nokia would have kept Windows Phone for maybe 1 more year before splitting and making high end Android devices. This of course would have completely killed windows phone and very possibly begun the end of windows all together. Microsoft needed to buy Nokia in order to remain relevant

theefman says:

Well maybe that's what needs to happen. Microsoft has obviously fumbled the development of the platform, can't blame anyone but themselves for the state its in. Same for Windows, poorly marketed and overpriced devices haven't helped W8 take off. Android and ios are not necessarily head and shoulders ahead of WP and Windows 8 technically, its just due to the poor management at Microsoft who were so slow to respond and even now still look beyond their own platforms for their best work. The world seems to be saying they don't want Windows in any form, maybe they are right.

TechBell says:

Microsoft is trying to emulate Apple [and why the hell not?] but the one thing Apple gets that Microsoft doesn't is less is more. Refine, simplify and then go back and do it again. 

TechBell says:

As I said, there's nothing Microsoft needs to manufacture that it couldn't outsource. They already have distribution channels and they're not getting the Nokia brand. But I suppose in this upside-down tech bubble that values an app at $19 billion, Nokia - and its associated headaches and tens of thousands of employees - seemed like a bargain. At the end of the day, consumers will buy Windows Phones because they're ultimately better than what's available at the same price. 

DJCBS says:

Well, if agreeing with Bill Gates is pure ignorance, great.

Yes, Nokia would have ditched Windows Phone as their only OS. They would have gone Android. Yes, Windows Phone would lose a strong player.

But guess what? Windows Phone IS STILL going to lose Nokia. Because Nokia will be gone. Their employees may become Microsoft employees but to the common consumer, that means zero. If the Nokia brand ins't on the phone, they move ahead to another brand they know and trust. Because Microsoft did NOT buy Nokia. They didn't even managed to buy licenses to use the brand on future smartphones.

Microsoft will now be facing in smartphones the same challenges they're facing on the PC market, except this time they don't command +80% of the market.

So, no, Microsoft doesn't need to produce their own phones. What Microsoft should have done from the start is not only seriously develop the OS but also make it EASY for OEMs to adopt it. The things that they are doing now (ditching fees, restrictions etc) is what they could and should have done from the beginning. And they didn't need Nokia to build Windows Phone for them.

The reality is, Nokia build up Windows Phone because Microsoft didn't care to do it. Now Nokia is gonna disappear (at leats until 2016) and they're finally trying to bring other OEMs to produce WP by doing the things they could and should have done in 2009/2010 and that would have certainly ensured that the likes of LG, Sony, HTC and Samsung  wouldn't have completely ditched or cared little about WP.

The future of WP will not pass through Microsoft hardware, regardless of the origin of the employees they have. It will be dependent on Microsoft's ability to courtship new OEMs to produce phones.

TechBell says:

Yup, 

Microsoft would have been better served if it had bought 51% of Nokia instead of the whole kit. And I get a kick out of watching Elop and others spin their rationale for the Nokia X - which is they want to create a smart phone for emerging markets which will ultimately serve as a pathway to higher priced Lumia's... Nope. Nokia X was created to get some Android marketshare and will only serve as a step-up to higher-priced Android handsets - which they won't be building - yet. 

Prediction: Microsoft will develop Android phones despite what they say. It's the VHS/Betamax battle. Sony made VHS players in the end even though they knew they had a better product. You can't fight the consumer - ultimately they decide and right now they're choosing Android phones. 

 

Tips_y says:

I'll make a better prediction: Microsoft WILL continue, and even expand, to make software for Android BUT WILL NEVER adopt it as its own OS together with their own Windows. The moment they adopt Android, they will begin to wither and die. And how ironic you used Sony as an example for Microsoft to emulate because look at where Sony is now: it's slowly withering and dying.

And how old are you anyway? The reason I ask is because you seem to imply that Android will forever stay at the top therefore Microsoft needs to adopt it. If you live long enough, you'll realize nothing is permanent, not even the almighty VHS, which is now nowhere to be found.

 

TechBell says:

...and Ballmer got his in the end.

Tips_y says:

If you mean Ballmer got his way in the end, then you're right. Moral lesson, maybe it's good to shout? ;-)

MadSci2 says:

I've dealt with international taxation issues and Tax Treaties. Know this. The Government is responsible for making these Treaties clear, unambiguous, and keeping them up to date.  In practice, and in this case, the Indian government has not bothered to do their duty, leaving what are now commonplace and significant international transactions not clearly covered in their Treaty. Rather than fixing the problem in a timely manner by negotiating with Finland, they have taken the position that they can over interpret their old fashioned language to compell Nokia and other to pay all the tax revenue to India, an dnot to Finland.

Its robbery.

This problem could be seen coming well off and should have been the subject of a negotiation of a revision to the Treaty.  As part of that they should forgive any tax revenue they "Say" they are owed as long as the negotiations are proceeding.  Then get it done and let the Companies pay whatever the governments agree they should pay and to whom.

Instead they are being lazy and acting like thieves. The result is a chilling of interest in placing manufacturing in India, a possibly devastating loss of jobs that suppont 8,000 families, and lots of bad blood where there could have been simple, effective and reasnable resolution via diplomacy.

It won't end well if India continues to act this way, and as always its the littlest people who will be hurt the most.

shuklashwin says:

Dear Sam, there is only one Supreme court in India.

greenspot says:

Close it, sell it, uglt nokia x born from that place

raul_junior says:

I wonder if Nokia pays those factory workers like Nike does

shmsnh says:

I hope Nokia and Microsoft don't give in. And since the Indian government doesn't really care about people or jobs, they'll stick to their... opinions. At this stage, it's pretty clear the government is trying to extort money. It's quite hopeless. I mean, come on!

terrokkinit says:

Ouch...closing a plant down? Hmmm, sounds like the government is willing to put people out of work to secure its own interests.

Same old open corruption in India, they don't even attempt to hide it one bit!

spaulagain says:

Seems how there are other big, reputable companies in the same situation. And the convenient timing of this "sudden" tax burden. I'd venture to say it's the Indian Government trying to pull a fast one.

I'd close the manufacturing plant now. What if the Indian government does this again when Microsoft takes over? I'm betting they would.

sunnybyday says:

The present Indian government is very unfriendly to businesses, lean a bit to the left of center, has dragged down the economy. All indications are that they will face a crushing defeat in the national elections due next month when billion Indians vote.. The right wing opposition excepted to win is very businesses friendly. That said, it may be too late for Microsoft - Nokia.

sadiq.na says:

Its actually Perception Problem both are same as far as buisiness is concerned .All others are just PR build up on whole pack of lies on development and media flattering it with out verifiying ground realities.But i have to admit  major middle class has been brainwashed with those hypes and looks like right wing  gonna win this time.But i sincerley hope AAP should mature (not a chance until now) and rule India.

morbility says:

India is a terrible place, corruption is rampant with the concerns of citizens being largely ignored. It's a faux democracy.

zaidgkhan says:

It's not a terrible place dude. It's just because of the selfish government and politicians..

Saiyaku says:

yeah, those pesky politicians that elect themselves...

MERCDROID says:

The US Government isn't too much better, lol.

Posted via my "Gift from God" Note 3, my "Blessed" iPad Mini 2, or my "Risen" Asus ROG"

MERCDROID says:

No government is immune to corruption.

Posted via my "Gift from God" Note 3, my "Blessed" iPad Mini 2, or my "Risen" Asus ROG"

Etios says:

USA is a terrible place, corruption is rampant with the concerns of citizens being largely ignored. It's a faux democracy. Fixed!!

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